The Primal Blueprint

[Dave]

I ordered Mark Sisson's Primal Blueprint last week. I'm very excited to get a better understanding of the nutritional theories in his book. Here's a blog post to give you an idea of what I'm talking about.

http://www.thefitclubnetwork.com/2010/01/going-primal/

If you are a fan, or interested, let's talk about it here.

[demaak]

HEY! I got the Primal Blueprint, too and just started reading it last night!! I don't know if I can cut grains out of my diet! I know you mentioned before about getting carbs from veggies, so have you actually cut out grain carbs? I guess its not so much that I LOVE bread or anything, its just that veggies are expensive. Grains are also way more accessible. Like, for my snacks, I grab a granola bar or something like that. Also, veggies have less calories, so it seems like I'd have to eat a TON of them to get the calories I need.. I would be interested, however, in doing a one week challenge of not eating grains, and doing other stuff the book says, just to give it a try. Having it short like that is a good way to prove to myself that I can do it.

Looking forward to discussing it! Kind of like a book club, that will be a good way to make sure I read it. Maybe we can herd a few more people in here.

[arizonafitclub]

http://www.marksdailyapple.com/primal-blueprint-success-story-more-like-grok/

[Dave]

Thanks Dave, I guess mostly I'm just worried about taking information from different sources and mixing them up and it causing the opposite effect. I think I need more structure so maybe I'll pick up Mark's book and see what I can get from it. I think I'll be better for me if it's just black and white with no gray areas, know what I mean?

Jason I think you'll find that almost all nutrition books agree that excessive carbs cause an insulin spike. They also agree that metabolic process is very bad for you and causes your body to store way more fat than it needs to. Sisson takes it a level further. Instead of looking at simple carbs and complex carbs, and saying that whole wheat carbs are better than white flour carbs, Sisson believes grain based carbs are poison. His point is simply that our primal ancestors didn't farm grains, so they didn't have this issue. Once we introduced a grain based diet (it is a staple now, not a condiment), our bodies started this insulin response and WE GOT FAT. Any good nutrition book is going to agree with the metabolic process associated with carbs. The difference is really the grain theory. Also, I believe Mark's book is keyed in on getting the fat cells to operate more efficiently. That really interests me.

I wouldn't read this book if I didn't know it works. Here's Sterling Purdy's story. He's one of the coaches we work with in Baton Rouge. Great guy. He hosted my brother and I at the LSU/Florida game this year. It was a hoot.

http://www.marksdailyapple.com/primal-blueprint-success-story-more-like-grok/

http://sterlingadvice.blogspot.com/

Dave

[jbarr89]

Thanks Dave! I am starting to "see the light", at least I hope :)
It's becoming clearer to me that what I am currently doing is actually making me fatter, what I thought was actually supposed to be healthy is not so much. I've been eating whole grains and legumes like there was no end because I thought that since they are "natural" they are in fact good for me; it sounds like the more I read it's quite the opposite. PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong though. I have also been eating a ton of veggies too, but looking back it doesn't make much sense to me if I was only eating half-healthy; kinda like putting a tank of high octane fuel in your car and then dumping a bag of sugar in with it- kinda counter productive don't you think?
Hopefully once the book arrives it'll make more sense to me and I will have a "do-eat"and a "do-not-eat" list that'll make shopping easier.

[jennabourland]

I'm pretty new to the whole "eating healthy" thing. I used to pretty much live off of cereal, dairy, fruit, and peanut butter sandwiches with some baked goods thrown in the mix. (It's hard to not eat cookies when one of your favorite hobbies is baking.)

Anyway, hearing that grains aren't great is kind of a shock to me! I thought that by supplementing my diet with only whole grains was a good thing. So if it's not, does this mean one shouldn't eat any kind of bread/pasta/cereal (or other things I would normally think of as a carb)? Or do they make things like this out of good stuff? Would gluten-free products like these be okay?

Hearing that whole grains are bad makes me feel like my puppy died...

[FitRunner]

I had a look at his website last night. Although liking something doesn't mean it's true, I really like most of what he's saying. His 10 rules for modern living are pretty much what makes me feel best.

However, I'm not sure I buy his main thesis about grain being poison. Here's why:

1) I'm not an anthropologist, but I do not believe we've been fat for the vast majority of the time we have eaten a grain-based diet. Wide-spread obesity is an incredibly recent phenomenon, and is geographically localized in ways that do not obviously correlate with grain consumption. It does, on the other hand, correlate with the so-called "Western diet". That needs accounting for. At the very least, his statement will likely need qualification, moderation and explicit statement of assumptions. "Eating less grain when you live in an industrial society and have a desk job is a good idea" and "grain is poison" are really different statements. Which leads me to my second objection:

2) His language is somewhat sensationalistic. "Poison" as a thesis? Calling glucose in the blood toxic is kind of like calling the HCl in our stomachs very dangerous. They're both true, but putting it that way is omitting very important facts about what your body needs them for, and what mechanisms your body has to mitigate the damage. That kind of writing style is a big credibility minus in my book.

If the book addresses either point, please let me know! I almost hope he does because he's saying a lot of what I want to hear :D

[Dave]

I had a look at his website last night. Although liking something doesn't mean it's true, I really like most of what he's saying. His 10 rules for modern living are pretty much what makes me feel best.

However, I'm not sure I buy his main thesis about grain being poison. Here's why:

1) I'm not an anthropologist, but I do not believe we've been fat for the vast majority of the time we have eaten a grain-based diet. Wide-spread obesity is an incredibly recent phenomenon, and is geographically localized in ways that do not obviously correlate with grain consumption. It does, on the other hand, correlate with the so-called "Western diet". That needs accounting for. At the very least, his statement will likely need qualification, moderation and explicit statement of assumptions. "Eating less grain when you live in an industrial society and have a desk job is a good idea" and "grain is poison" are really different statements. Which leads me to my second objection:

2) His language is somewhat sensationalistic. "Poison" as a thesis? Calling glucose in the blood toxic is kind of like calling the HCl in our stomachs very dangerous. They're both true, but putting it that way is omitting very important facts about what your body needs them for, and what mechanisms your body has to mitigate the damage. That kind of writing style is a big credibility minus in my book.

If the book addresses either point, please let me know! I almost hope he does because he's saying a lot of what I want to hear :D


The book hasn't gotten specific enough about all this just yet. Right now I'm only in the overview chapters. He does put grain under the law "Don't eat poisonious things". He's not saying that blood glycogen is toxic. Instead, what he's saying is that it causes the insulin response and that metabolic process is not healthy. Lots of things fall into that category, including sugar. Your point about the evolution of obesity is well taken. If you look at the sugar in our diets (particularly since the big food companies started putting high fructose corn syrup in EVERYTHING) it is rather stunning.

I think the truth, or at least the managable diet, lies somewhere in the middle. I have to say the book makes a compelling argument for all this, but I'm not giving up my steel cut oats just yet.

Dave

[Dave]

I'm pretty new to the whole "eating healthy" thing. I used to pretty much live off of cereal, dairy, fruit, and peanut butter sandwiches with some baked goods thrown in the mix. (It's hard to not eat cookies when one of your favorite hobbies is baking.)

Anyway, hearing that grains aren't great is kind of a shock to me! I thought that by supplementing my diet with only whole grains was a good thing. So if it's not, does this mean one shouldn't eat any kind of bread/pasta/cereal (or other things I would normally think of as a carb)? Or do they make things like this out of good stuff? Would gluten-free products like these be okay?

Hearing that whole grains are bad makes me feel like my puppy died...

Jenna There is a measure of "degrees" that needs to be taken into account. I'm not saying whole grains are bad. That's the author's theory and we are here to discuss the merits of it. Whole grains are certainly (without question) better than white flour processed foods. So that's a big upgrade in diet. Just a theory here.

If you have pasta, make it whole wheat. We do that. If you do have grain based products, just make sure they are not processed heavily and use whole wheat. Processed products invariably get sugar (or some form of sugar like HFCS) added into them.

One thing you have to keep in mind is that all of these foods create an increase in blood glycogen and will trigger that insulin response. Complex carbs just take longer and release slower. A bowl of regular flour pasta is a sugar fiesta as far as the body is concerned.

I would eat them in moderation. You can get a lot of carbs from fruits and veggies. http://www.thefitclubnetwork.com/2009/05/get-your-carbs-from-fruits-and-veggies/. That's going to be a better source.

And so we continue to learn more.

Dave

[Dave]

Thanks Dave! I am starting to "see the light", at least I hope :)
It's becoming clearer to me that what I am currently doing is actually making me fatter, what I thought was actually supposed to be healthy is not so much. I've been eating whole grains and legumes like there was no end because I thought that since they are "natural" they are in fact good for me; it sounds like the more I read it's quite the opposite. PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong though. I have also been eating a ton of veggies too, but looking back it doesn't make much sense to me if I was only eating half-healthy; kinda like putting a tank of high octane fuel in your car and then dumping a bag of sugar in with it- kinda counter productive don't you think?
Hopefully once the book arrives it'll make more sense to me and I will have a "do-eat"and a "do-not-eat" list that'll make shopping easier.

Well again, this is just a theory. I'm going to test it, but for now it is just a discussion topic. I would recommend that you cut carbs. Try to cut your carbs down a bit and make sure you are getting in sufficient protein and healthy fats. Just balance out the diet more than it sounds like you may be now, and you should see some success.

Dave

[jennabourland]

Dave,

So in relation to P90X, is it alright to count fruits/veggies as carbs? I'm having a hard time only eating the one serving of fruit a day that I'm allowed and would love to be able to have a banana or something and count that as a carb serving (especially during Phases II and III when more carbs get added in).

Again, I really appreciate you answering all of my questions. It helps so much.

[demaak]

Dave- I'm only a couple chapters into it, but I think in the early pages he mentioned something about grains being ok if you are doing some intense training, like you might be for your tri's. However, he also says it is healthiest to just do moderate exercise and sprint occasionally, so I'm wondering how training for races (I'm doing a few 5K's and a 10K this year) will throw a kink in those plans. Maybe need to use the Mark's Daily Apple site and forum for reference.

Pasta (whole grain) will be the hardest thing for me to cut out. And brown rice. Its just such a common habit to include some type of grain in with meals. Its going to be a hard one to break!

[demaak]

Jenna- I'm not sure the level of carbs in most veggies, but I know black beans are on the P90X list.

[Dave]

Jenna That's exactly what I would do. I would just try to eat more veggies and fruit. Check the Glycemic Index of the fruit you are eating (http://www.glycemicindex.com/). I believe the reason that Phase I includes so much protein and so little fruit is to reduce the sugar intake (and insulin response). Fruit is great, but it can trigger that. Just go through some of your favorites and see how they match up. Then try to pick low sugar foods. Natural sugar from these foods is better than refined sugar in a Kit Kat, but when you can limit sugar, you should try.

Demaak I'm not on board with the exercise elements of the program. I get where he is coming from, but I'm still going to race triathlon. I'm also going to continue to eat carbs. If I can make my fat cells more efficient, which is where I think the book is going, then I'm going to do that. That makes a lot of sense to me. Sisson was a world class endurance athlete (Sub 2:20 marathon, and 6th at Kona Ironman). I think he got burned out and this may be somewhat of a by product of that. I do know that Sterling Purdy got great results and when I talked to him, he said P90X fits within the Primal Blueprint very well. I posted his story on the previous page.

Dave

[FitRunner]

I think the truth, or at least the managable diet, lies somewhere in the middle. I have to say the book makes a compelling argument for all this, but I'm not giving up my steel cut oats just yet.

I agree - especially on the oatmeal... that would be worse to give up than bread. Like giving up a little bit of my soul :( I'd have to be convinced left, right, and upside down to do that.

[Dave]

I had an "ah ha" moment last night while reading The Primal Blueprint. I have had trouble sleeping for years. Sometimes I can crash, sometimes I can't. Sometimes working out puts me down, sometimes it keeps me awake. There really hasn't been much of a pattern that I could figure out. I started taking stuff like Advil PM about a year ago. I hate it because it makes me so groggy the next day. About three weeks ago I picked up some melatonin after reading an article on it. What great stuff. Puts me straight out and I feel refreshed after a good night's sleep.

So last night I'm reading the Blueprint and Sisson is comparing the lives Grok (the fictional primal human) and The Korg family (modern family). One thing he talks about is how the insulin response interfers with the body's natural production of...you guessed it...melatonin. AH HA! Now I have not tested this just yet, but I can tell you that if it helps me sleep better, I'm doing it.

As I get further into the book the theory is more clear. It is all about controlling insulin. Sisson believes that excess insulin interferes with numerous metabolic processes and causes the fat cells to become very inefficient. He believes that you can limit insulin (makes perfect sense) and make your fat cells your primary source of storage and energy, instead of just storage. That makes more sense to me, but I need to do some more reading to be sure. I do see that as an endurance athlete how relying on my fat cells rather than glycogen stores could be extremely beneficial. I can also see how the cycle of horking down pasta to increase glycogen stores could actually be a very viscious one. More pasta = more sugar = more insulin = numerous inefficiencies in the metabolic process.

There's today's update. If you struggle sleeping I highly recommend melatonin. It has really helped me.

Dave

[jbarr89]

I agree, I take melatonin every once in a while and it puts me out like a light and i don't feel groggy at all in the morning. I would assume that it puts me into REM sleep faster which is why I feel so refreshed, versus letting my natural sleep cycle run its course where it could take upwards of an hour to reach REM. Just my thought/opinion.
-jason

[Dave]

Interesting first week with the Primal Blueprint. I really focused on eliminating sugar intake, unless it was on purpose. On purpose? Yep, Recovery Formula. It has a lot of sugar in it. After a hard workout, that sugar is ok because it replenishes the muscles. Otherwise, I really dug deep into the ingredients of the foods I was eating. The Nutrition Facts don't tell the whole story. You need to really examine what is in the foods you are eating. I also increased my intake of fats. I ate eggs instead of egg whites and I used coconut oil. In addition, I lowered my intake of grains. I used to eat a lot of Steel Cut Oatmeal and, of course, pasta. I had two bowls of oatmeal this week, but no pasta. Tonight Monica made an awesome meal. Instead of pasta for the base, she used broccoli. It was awesome. Video proof: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYXM8OQZ290

I had a great week of training. I put in 20 miles running, 27 miles on the bike (all one hill ride) and two Master Swim days. I feel really good and I've lost two pounds. My weight is pretty static right now, which is generally fine. I'm at about 168, which is pretty much where I want to be. Nonetheless, if I could drop a few more pounds that makes everything in the endurance world a little easier (except the swim). Lighter = faster.

Dave

[demaak]

I am really making an effort to cut grains out this week. I have been noticing the "crash" that the book talks about when the grain carb "wears off" and then you are jonesing for more. I brought a ton of veggies to work with me so when I'm hungry, I can eat those, and some fruit too. I went to Sams Club on Saturday and bought a bunch of fruits and veggies, so now I will have to figure out how much I will actually eat during a week to figure out how much to buy, etc. Anyway, I really feel like this might be what I need to finally get my weight and fitness on track. There are things that you don't want to do, like quit eating pizza,

but when you realize how good feeling good and looking better is, then it is easier to give things up. Especially when you start thinking of them as poison.

I don't know much about cooking because my mom didn't teach me a lot, so I've had to figure things out on my own, look them up, or just ask. I found a "recipe" online on making the Perfect Hardboiled eggs and they really did turn out perfect. Here it is if you are interested:
http://elise.com/recipes/archives/005251how_to_make_perfect_hard_boiled_eggs.php

[demaak]

I just watched your broccoli video and it reminded me of a question.

Since fat is ok, does that mean I can buy regular 80/20 ground beef now and not have to shell out the extra dough for the Extra Lean stuff??

[Dave]

I just watched your broccoli video and it reminded me of a question.

Since fat is ok, does that mean I can buy regular 80/20 ground beef now and not have to shell out the extra dough for the Extra Lean stuff??

That would certainly be in line with Sisson's thinking. I believe we will still be eating low fat meats. I'm not 100% sold that these fall in the "healthy" category just yet.

[demaak]

I just watched a video on you tube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxqvITCAM9I) and he said something like "Good cuts of meat" and I'm not sure ground chuck would qualify. Need to keep reading the book. Maybe he goes into more detail. I'm just past the Grok Korg thing right now.

[Dave]

Demaak Thanks. That's a good interview.

After last night's reading I'm upgrading my recommendation on The Primal Blueprint from a "should read" to a "must read". Whether you agree with the theory that grains are the root of all evil in our diet or not, this book will provide you with an excellent understanding of how the body processes a wide variety of foods. It is entertaining and informative. Read this book.

Dave

[demaak]

Yesterday was pretty much my first day without grains, and I had issues with not feeling full. But today I have no appetite at all. Could it be related to insulin or is it just maybe stress today?

[demaak]

Let me add, I have been a little hungry, but am easily filled and I'm just wondering if this is part of the adjustment process and if any of you have been through this.

[Dave]

I just watched a video on you tube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxqvITCAM9I) and he said something like "Good cuts of meat" and I'm not sure ground chuck would qualify. Need to keep reading the book. Maybe he goes into more detail. I'm just past the Grok Korg thing right now.

Check this out: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/lean-meat/ The debate continues. All fats are not created equally.

[Dave]

Let me add, I have been a little hungry, but am easily filled and I'm just wondering if this is part of the adjustment process and if any of you have been through this.

I haven't really noticed anything other than when I'm full, I'm full. I have had a couple of meals in the last few days that I just didn't finish. Normally, I'd clean the plate whether full or not. Lately I have noticed that I'm just good and stopped there. Could be any number of things, including what Mark refers to as the "anti-nutrients" in grains. For me it may simply be the almost complete lack of excess sugars in my diet. I've been really digging into everything I eat and just focusing on cutting out the sugar. It is truly amazing how much sugar (or crap resembling sugar) is in our foods. The end result is the same as cutting out grains...less insulin.

[FitRunner]

I saw another article that I thought the readers of this thread might find interesting regarding insulin responses and training: http://www.marathonguide.com/training/articles/MandBFuelOnFat.cfm

The key conclusion is that for endurance athletes, "The lesson is that you can reduce your reliance on carbohydrate, but you can't eliminate it." The role of insulin is discussed quite a bit.

I think this is pretty much in line with what Dave was saying, but from a completely different type of source.

[Dave]

Thanks. I'll look that over. I think Mark Sisson's book is great, but he is coming from a place where he's sort of "been there, done that", which does bug me a bit. It's pretty easy for a guy who finished 6th at Kona and ran a 2:20 marathon to down play the importance of those types of events to people like me who really want to see how far they can push their bodies.

He provides a "carbohydrate curve", which you can find here: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/how-to-succeed-with-the-primal-blueprint/

What he says about this is that the more active you are, the more carbs you are going to need. This makes a lot of sense to me. I have not really calculated my ratios lately, but I have been eating a lot more fruits and veggies than I usually would. I think this is my body actually telling me to turn on the carb faucet. The major changes to my diet have been in the fat arena. I'm not really cutting carbs that dramatically, I'm just more focused on where I get them and on not taking them in in such large amounts. I used to hork down A LOT of pasta (really...a lot). This isn't like an Atkins sort of "no-carb" deal and I firmly believe that wouldn't work for me (and probably not most people).

Wrapping up week 2 and I feel great. I've also become a lot more conscious about digging down into the foods I eat. For example, what did the food I'm eating eat (if it is animal based)? I think that's helping me to be extremely conscious about what's going in my body.

This weekend is going to test the nutrition plan for sure. I'm cutting out of work here shortly, to go pound out about 40 miles in the hills of lovely North Scottsdale. Tomorrow, I'm going to get up and do some strength training and then go play golf. Sunday, is long run day and I'm looking to try and get in at least 8. I felt good last week, and I thought I saw a little detour path on my run so I may stretch that out to 9+, but we'll have to see how I feel.

[fit2praise]

I ordered the book last night. I think it will be a good read and Dave is recommending it.

[Dave]

You'll love it. Everytime I read it, blog posts scream through my head. I've just been too busy to post anything.

Here's the latest thing I've found facinating. Mark is a strong advocate of Omega-3's. This is the one supplement that slips through the cracks for me. I always take my shakeology, because it is breakfast and I'm hungry. I usually get another serving of vitamins/minerals later in the day with a protein shake of some sort. Plus, I've been gobbling down veggies like they are going out of style. The Omega-3 bottle sits right in front of me here at work, yet I will overlook it. Lately I've been a lot more diligent about getting it in. I knew it was good for me, but I never really understood why (other than the obvious cardiovascular and brain health.

Mark explains here: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/fish-oil-health-benefits/. The foods we consume (assuming you are eating primally) are high in Omega 6 fatty acids. Part of the reason they are so high in Omega 6's is that they are fed grain. Cattle would be eating grass if they had their choice. Chicken's would shun corn and go for grubs if they had theirs. Our cost-conscious farmers are producing foods that are high in Omega 6 Fatty Acids. Our consumption of those foods throws the ratio of Omega 3 to Omega 6 way out of wack. That causes a host of problems, including inflammation and oxidation (you'll note these are the same problems caused by excessive insulin). Taking Omega 3's and limiting consumption of these high Omega 6 foods by eating things like grass fed beef and truly "free range" (see: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/egg-purchasing-guide/) eggs in combination with lowering the amount of insulin produced to regulate blood sugar combats these negative effects.

Studies are nice, but I'm into proof. This is the fourth week of my primal diet. I have not had pasta during this period, nor have I eaten any potato products. I have not had a sandwich, which was a staple of my diet. During this period, I have absolutely been pounding on my body. Long runs, hard hill rides and a more strength training than I've done in the past few months (training phase focused on strength and cardio). My biggest concern with taking on the Half Ironman was my knee. My left ACL was torn in January of 1994, but I didn't have surgery until July. Long story there. It was a complete mess for 10 years. Power 90 and P90X helped me to strengthen the muscles around the knee, which allows me to rely less on the artificial ACL. However, I hit the ice constantly. If I don't it swells up and that inflammation HURTS...a lot. If I forget, I'm limping around work the next day. 4 weeks...no ice. Not once. It just has not puffed up to the extent that I've felt like ice is necessary. Not that ice is a bad thing at all, I just haven't had to think about it and so I haven't done it. It just occurred to me that it might just be because I'm putting my body in a metabolic state that doesn't encourage excess inflammation. I should also note that during this period of time Monica got the flu. She rarely gets sick, but when she does it is always worse for me. I barely had a sniffle. What I did have was gone in one day. Is it because of the Primal Blueprint? I don't know. What I do know is that I feel great and I'm going to keep going.

Dave

[JimNAZ]

Hey Dave,

I'm still working on the first chapter. Been going back and forth between the book and his website. I really do not find it too hard to grasp his concept. It makes a lot of sense. My biggest challenge will be converting! It was hard enough to switch to multi-grain from white. ;)

When you stopped eating grain based carbs did you do it "cold Turkey" or gradually? Was it difficult and did your body need to "adjust" to the change? I am dealing with enough of my body adjusting as it is . . .

As you know I am doing Insanity right now and we will be starting the second month on Monday. I started hitting a wall the first month and was thinking to give this (no grain carbs) a try since the second month is more difficult. You seem to be having great results! I'm just worried how my body will react to replacing all those grain carb calories with fruit and veggies. (It is kind of resisting already with the added fruit & veggies that I have added since starting Insanity.)
At least 3 days a week i have proatmeal for breakfast (eggs the other days) and every day is cereal for morning snack. I am not sure what I can replace them with (??)
** I have taken my first (baby) step by replacing my afternoon snack of a PB & J sandwich with almond butter and an apple.

Back to PB: Mark states that chronic cardio is bad. Obviously your activity/training is at that level. How do you feel about that comment? I would guess that every theory will be hard to follow word for word. The diet part of the PB concept should still be a big improvement for those who want to follow this path. Right???
I am no where near your level at the same time Insanity is no sleeper and as great as I am starting to feel (due to doing it) I will want to do more when I am done!

Looking forward to reading more . . .

Jim

[Dave]

Hey Jim,

I really like how straightforward the book is. The "Chronic Cardio" thing is a little much, but I think that's an easy comment for a guy to make when he's already seen how far he can push himself. I haven't yet, so I just sort of let it go. If the rest of the book were dubious, I'd stop reading it. The nutritional information makes sense and I'm seeing results.

I started by really looking at what foods I was eating. For me the "Big Three" were pasta, bread and oats. I have had a couple of bowls of steel cut oats that I have in my desk. Work was busy and I was hungry. That's life. Otherwise, I've been pretty good about it. It has been a challenge, but I really wanted to test it out and see whether it was going to work for me.

You might not quite be there yet, but the knowledge is the power here. Once you understand this you are in a much better position to make good choices.

Dave

[Dave]

I was listening to a triathlon podcast where a book called The Paleo Diet for Athletes was discussed. Info: http://www.trainingbible.com/pdf/Paleo_for_Athletes_Cliff_Notes.pdf. The co-author of the book is Joe Friel. Joe is also the author of the Training Bible and a guy that jumps in on one of the local group rides when he's in town. He was the inspiration for me starting to look beyond grains for carbs, when I wote this post last May: http://www.thefitclubnetwork.com/2009/05/get-your-carbs-from-fruits-and-veggies/. The book appears to be a way to reconcile the Primal Blueprint's excellent information with my "chronic cardio" lifestyle.

I really do want to be better, at everything I do. I want to eat better and go longer faster. Nutrition is what's going to get me there.

[JimNAZ]

Hey Dave,

Whats the "skinny" on potatoes? Too much starch right? What about yams or sweet potatoes? I have really leaned toward those lately rather than regular potatoes. But, PB mentions "potatoes" as being bad. Are they all in the same category?
I ask because I followed the link to your May post and there was a list of carb values for fruit/veggies. Sweet potatoes was on the list?
(Just tell me I can eat em . . . ;) . . .)

[Dave]

Starchy tubers fall into the "Enjoy in Moderation" category. "...Most potatoes in general are another domesticated, recantly introduced product that happens to stimulate a high insulin response when eaten. Yams and sweet potatoes are nutritionally superior to the lighter colored potatoes (russets, reds, whites, new potatoes) and stimulate a lower insulin response. Starchy vegetables might be a particularly appealing choice for those who require more than 150 grams per day of carbs to replenish their frequently depleted muscle and live glycogen stores."

So there you have it. Enjoy sweet potatoes in moderation and avoid the others.

[JimNAZ]

I am slowly working my way through the book. Can't wait to get to the food suggestions recipes etc.

The one thing I am struggling with now is his take on grams of carbs per day. 100-150 to maintain! I cannot see how someone can manage on that.
Yesterday the only grain carbs I had was an oroweat sandwich thin for lunch and I was at 200 grams for the day. Today I was totally grain carb less!!!!! (And I am finishing with 187 grams of carbs.)
* Yes I have gone 2 whole days without oatmeal or cereal . . .:eek:

So I would still have to cut down on fruit to get under 150 grams for the day. That sure takes away some of the fun stuff . . .

I realize that this is not set in stone and I am doing a rather intense workout program at the moment. I also understand that my 200 grams of carbs is a hell of a lot better than (who knows how many) I was eating before!

Just a huh while I am still reading the book.

Jim

[Insanexer]

The primal blueprint is a great book, I read it once and I am reading it again. On the whole grain topic, I cant really agree with it being that bad. Some of my protein source is legumes and lentils. Even tony who is a (vegetarian/flexitarian) eats legumes as one of his protein sources.
Mark did a great job, also thanks Dave for sharing his website and the post about Omega 3s. Helped me out a lot with the balance question.

[fit2praise]

Just got my copy of PB yesterday. I start reading the first 10 pages today. I can't wait!!

[Dave]

Hey Guys - Primal Update

I've been struggling a bit with the endurance training that I do. Friday I rode my bike to work and hit some big hills on the way home. I found the point where the glycogen is exhausted from my muscles. It was a unique feeling. Just out of gas completely. I stopped, ate some stuff I had with me and went along my way. Sunday I had a really hard ride planned. 58 miles with a fast crew. I decided to have a bowl of pasta to "carb up". That's the first pasta I've had for about a month. The ride on Sunday went exceptionally well. I was really, really strong.

I think the lesson here is that my activity level is going to require more carbs to fuel this fire. My plan is to remain focused on non-grain based carbs as the primary source of carbs, unless I'm preparing for one of these long efforts. All in all a good effort.

On Sunday I went Primal, but decidedly unhealthy having Oso Buco for my Valentine's dinner. It was exceptionally good, but exceptionally rich. I has been a long time since I've eaten anything like that and it did not agree with me at all. I think the fatty red meats are going to stay off the diet. I'll stick with turkey, chicken and ground beef.

Dave

[JimNAZ]

Hey Dave (and everyone),

I'm getting pretty frustrated with the challenge of zeroing in on what will be good (great?) nutrition for me. Calories/carbs/how much protein/tracking everything etc etc can become rather stressful. Especially for someone like me who has a lot more to learn on nutrition. I do not have the experience to (quickly) notice my body telling me something is not right.
It is good to see (from your post) that it is ok to adjust and do what your body needs, not what is written on a piece of paper. I can't wait to get to the point where I know where I can be "flexible" instead of being so anal about trying to follow everything word for word . . .

I am around the 130 pg mark of the book and came across another HUH. Mark states that legumes (soy and othe beans) are poison. Unless I missed it earlier in the book he does not explain why. I am changing over to almond milk anyway but have gone to soy due to problems with dairy. Just wondering . . .
I am happy to see that almost all the fruits that we eat are on his top 10 list!

Jim

[Dave]

Hey Jim - This is all a learning process. The point of the threads (this one in particular) is to discuss what's working and what isn't so we all benefit.

I took a break from the book right at that point. I can tell you that soy is not very good for you. It is billed as very healthy, but it contains a lot of hormones. It was never intended to be a staple of diets. Instead, it was more of a side dish. Now tofu has become big business, and the message is that it is healthy. Both Tony and Missy (his chef) say to avoid soy. The primary reason is the hormones. They told us a story at camp about a man that grew breasts after eating a lot of soy (a whole lot).

I think Sisson's book is great, but he's a bit dramatic with some of his messages. Nobody buys the paper if the lead story is "Everything is Great Today and No one is Miserable".

[Sterling]

Dave- I'm only a couple chapters into it, but I think in the early pages he mentioned something about grains being ok if you are doing some intense training, like you might be for your tri's. However, he also says it is healthiest to just do moderate exercise and sprint occasionally, so I'm wondering how training for races (I'm doing a few 5K's and a 10K this year) will throw a kink in those plans. Maybe need to use the Mark's Daily Apple site and forum for reference.

Pasta (whole grain) will be the hardest thing for me to cut out. And brown rice. Its just such a common habit to include some type of grain in with meals. Its going to be a hard one to break!

He doesn't say grains are OK. In fact, they cause a lot of damage and can put your immune system at high risk. He does say that your body needs a ton of carbohydrates if you are embarking on heavy, chronic-cardio training as you would to prepare for a marathon or triathlon. However, he doesn't endorse marathon-like activities due to the high stress it puts on our bodies, muscles, minds, hormones, etc. He experienced the havoc that this type of training can do to your body first-hand and witnessed all of his 'triathlon' friends experience chronic injuries and sicknessses. Therefore, he advises against it. I'm inclined to agree.

Also, don't mistake his nutritional convicitons for losing weight. His platform addresses the healthiest and easiest way to rid and keep body fat off. I agree with his premise. HOWEVER, losing body fat is simple; it's the law of thermodynamics. If you take in less calories than you expend, then you'll lose body fat. It's that simple. If you eat a McDonald's quarter pounder with cheese, fries, and a coke every single day and it's below your required calories, then you'll lose weight. Is that the healthiest way to lose weight and fuel a healthy, active life? Of course not.

I employ a pretty simple lifestyle.

1) Exercise
2) Eat lots of protein and veggies
3) Eat moderate amounts of fruits and fats (including animal fats, coconut oil, olive oil, etc)
4) Limit carbohydrates
5) Don't eat much processed crap and sugar
6) Drink lots of water
7) Get your sleep
8) Use intermittent fasting (IF)

This is mostly how I live. All the time? No. I'm not quite as strict as Mark. For example, last night for my wife's birthday I...well...uh...I ate my fair share of crap. But that's the exception, not the norm.

If you want to eat grains, eat them. But I'd cut way back on them. Ideally, I recommend you eliminate them for many reasons (some included in Mark's book).

Just thought I'd add my 2 cents.

[Dave]

He doesn't say grains are OK. In fact, they cause a lot of damage and can put your immune system at high risk. He does say that your body needs a ton of carbohydrates if you are embarking on heavy, chronic-cardio training as you would to prepare for a marathon or triathlon. However, he doesn't endorse marathon-like activities due to the high stress it puts on our bodies, muscles, minds, hormones, etc. He experienced the havoc that this type of training can do to your body first-hand and witnessed all of his 'triathlon' friends experience chronic injuries and sicknessses. Therefore, he advises against it. I'm inclined to agree.

Also, don't mistake his nutritional convicitons for losing weight. His platform addresses the healthiest and easiest way to rid and keep body fat off. I agree with his premise. HOWEVER, losing body fat is simple; it's the law of thermodynamics. If you take in less calories than you expend, then you'll lose body fat. It's that simple. If you eat a McDonald's quarter pounder with cheese, fries, and a coke every single day and it's below your required calories, then you'll lose weight. Is that the healthiest way to lose weight and fuel a healthy, active life? Of course not.

I employ a pretty simple lifestyle.

1) Exercise
2) Eat lots of protein and veggies
3) Eat moderate amounts of fruits and fats (including animal fats, coconut oil, olive oil, etc)
4) Limit carbohydrates
5) Don't eat much processed crap and sugar
6) Drink lots of water
7) Get your sleep
8) Use intermittent fasting (IF)

This is mostly how I live. All the time? No. I'm not quite as strict as Mark. For example, last night for my wife's birthday I...well...uh...I ate my fair share of crap. But that's the exception, not the norm.

If you want to eat grains, eat them. But I'd cut way back on them. Ideally, I recommend you eliminate them for many reasons (some included in Mark's book).

Just thought I'd add my 2 cents.

I agree that Mark is definately not saying that grains are good in any sense. He makes some compelling arguments to be sure, and Monica has just recently started reading a book about the impact of things like gluten on kids and ADHD. He did say that while he doesn't endorse "chronic cardio" (a lovely term), if you are going to do endurance training you need more carbs than someone that doesn't. I like the book a lot and it makes a lot of sense, but it does strike me as very easy for a guy who's already done everything in the endurance world he wanted to do to say that it is all overated and fundamentally bad for you. I like riding my bike 60 miles. It's probably the best workout of the week, simply because it is so freeking fun to go race around the valley on my bike. Even when I'm focused on strength training, I try to get in a group ride every week because it is a blast.

I have to adjust my diet accordingly. I need more carbs. The primary difference over the last month or so is that I've learned that all carbs are not created equally. Focusing on getting my carbs from foods that also provide my body with valuable micronutrients has completely changed my body. For example, I've noticed that I have less inflammation. I have a repaired ACL, and inflammation has been a part of my life for 15 years. I'm not saying it is gone, but there is absolutely a difference.

I guess the point is that you have to take the information and make it work for you. The knowledge is the important thing, and that's where I feel the book is tremendously valuable. It is packed with easy to understand info that really has been helpful. I've talked to a lot of my triathlete buddies who feel like Sisson is some sort of traitor and that his theories should be rejected out of hand because he no longer endorses endurance training. I disagree. The book is well done and informative and has helped me a lot. I seem to remember most of them saying P90X was a waste of time too, until they started seeing me lead the pack up the hills on our group rides and wanted to know why. "Well, I'm stronger because I strength train. Remember, that thing you said was a waste of time?"

Dave

[Jimilu]

I employ a pretty simple lifestyle.

1) Exercise
2) Eat lots of protein and veggies
3) Eat moderate amounts of fruits and fats (including animal fats, coconut oil, olive oil, etc)
4) Limit carbohydrates
5) Don't eat much processed crap and sugar
6) Drink lots of water
7) Get your sleep
8) Use intermittent fasting (IF)



What is IF?

[Sterling]

What is IF?

Hey Jimilu: Check out this blog post: http://bit.ly/1IygH6

[Dave]

Hey Jimilu: Check out this blog post: http://bit.ly/1IygH6

I did this last Monday. I was coming off of a golf trip where some less than completely healthy activity occurred. I just took a break from eating for about 20 hours, including the time I was asleep. I felt a lot better the next day and I lost 2 pounds that have not come back.

[JimNAZ]

Well I finished the book! I have to admit there were a lot of "hmmmm & huh"s" while I was reading it. Overall I feel that Mark opened my eyes to the value of good nutrition, and the results of bad nutrition. Because of this (and my new and improved healthy lifestyle) I have changed my food intake to reflect this.

Some of his other "laws" do make sense to me, at the same time I am kind of on the fence with his views on exercise.
* I'm curious . . . I just received my P90X package and in one of the pamphlets it credits Mark with developing the suppliments (I think it was suppliments). Hmmm, was this pre or post primal? Or does Mark feel that P90X is not over working out? It just seems strange that for as much as he mentions NOT TO over workout that he would be involved with an intense workout program like P90X.

Mark appears to back up his claims throughout the book, although you have to do some leg work in getting specifics. I feel his website (marksdailyapple.com) is a great resource for everything he talks about. I also like that he has lists of good/bad food in the back of the book.

I do not think it is a waste of time for someone to read this book. Even if you take bits and pieces of information and incorporate it into your lifestyle I cannot see it not helping. I think the biggest piece I took from this was his take on bad carbs. I have elliminated almost all of them from my diet the past few weeks and feel many times better! Can't say that was a coincidence.

Thanks Dave for the book recommendation!

Jim

[Sterling]

Well I finished the book! I have to admit there were a lot of "hmmmm & huh"s" while I was reading it. Overall I feel that Mark opened my eyes to the value of good nutrition, and the results of bad nutrition. Because of this (and my new and improved healthy lifestyle) I have changed my food intake to reflect this.

Some of his other "laws" do make sense to me, at the same time I am kind of on the fence with his views on exercise.
* I'm curious . . . I just received my P90X package and in one of the pamphlets it credits Mark with developing the suppliments (I think it was suppliments). Hmmm, was this pre or post primal? Or does Mark feel that P90X is not over working out? It just seems strange that for as much as he mentions NOT TO over workout that he would be involved with an intense workout program like P90X.

Mark appears to back up his claims throughout the book, although you have to do some leg work in getting specifics. I feel his website (marksdailyapple.com) is a great resource for everything he talks about. I also like that he has lists of good/bad food in the back of the book.

I do not think it is a waste of time for someone to read this book. Even if you take bits and pieces of information and incorporate it into your lifestyle I cannot see it not helping. I think the biggest piece I took from this was his take on bad carbs. I have elliminated almost all of them from my diet the past few weeks and feel many times better! Can't say that was a coincidence.

Thanks Dave for the book recommendation!

Jim

I addressed this (P90X and Primal) in a recent post. http://bit.ly/d9M2hJ

[Dave]

Jim - Couldn't agree more. Very interesting book. I'm taking "The Paleo Diet for Athletes" with me to Hawaii and I hope it is nearly as good.

Sterling - Great post on P90X and Primal there!

Dave

[JimNAZ]

Wow . . . Mark must have been reading my mind. Friday's blog on his website was about P90X!

I think he was fair and it made sense. Once I get through P90x (after finishing Insanity) I will have a great library of workouts to choose from, when I want to workout!

Jim

[scourtney7]

Jim that is certainly the truth. I just love having the variety. I received my first one on one with Tony workout DVD yesterday. It's quite wonderful and exciting to have a few different workouts and training styles, and trainer personalities to choose from on a daily basis. I am so thankful for Team Beachbody.


shannon

[CyberFitnessGuru]

Which nutrition system is better the p90x nutrition or the primal?

[Sterling]

I'd say primal because I think it's much healthier and less inflammatory.