On phase 2 ytring to lose weight

[Jimilu]

i am on the second weeks of phase 2 of p90x. Although p90x is not designed to lose weight that one of my objectives. I already lost like 17 puonds (out of 198), but i feel i reached a hiatus during the last couple of weeks. Would it be ok if i go to Level 1 of the nutrition system?

[Dave]

Hey there - Keep in mind that you may be simply gaining muscle and losing fat. That's very common with P90X. The scale doesn't tell you your body fat percentage. Rather than dropping to Level I, just cut about 400 calories out of your daily intake. That will promote weight loss, and should ensure that you have enough energy to still do the workouts.

[Jimilu]

Thanks Dave. Maybe 1 portion of protein, carb and dairy will do it. I will post my results!

[FitRunner]

WOW 17 lbs. Just saying :D

[Jimilu]

WOW 17 lbs. Just saying :D

Thanks, but. That is what happends when you love to cook and stop doing excercise.Well, that's what i say to myself. I need at least 15 more.

[FitRunner]

Don't put your achievement down! Of course you shouldn't settle until you're happy, but that you have further to go doesn't mean your progress isn't great! I wish I could lose even half of that as quickly as you have. I know - those comparisons aren't very useful - but think about how much that really is and how much you've done that you could easily have chosen not to do. How much you've done and gotten results from that someone else out there in a situation close to yours didn't do. Good for you!

[David2391]

I was at the same point. Finished my 90 days, lost 27 lbs and the weight loss just stopped. Like you said, P90X is not designed for weight loss, so I have switched over to ChaLEAN Extreme. I am on my 4th day and I am sore hitting muscles that P90X didn't. You may want to look into it.

[Dave]

I wrote this post on one of my customer's threads on Team Beachbody and the question was lack of strength. I thought it might help to expose some of the less considered issues that may be at play if you are struggling to lose weight, but are generally on track with the workouts.

This can be a sneaky one. Consider free radicals and/or an overly acidic diet as potential causes of unexplained lack of strength.

Even if you have a good diet, the harder you workout the more cell oxidation you are going to face. These "free radicals" basically damage cells much like rust damages metal. That's a serious issue to keep in mind. In the fall of 2008 I was cramming pasta down my throat getting ready for a race and stopped taking my multi-vitamin and my Omega-3's. I found myself extremely weak, but could not understand why. I believe the answer was cell oxidation. My diet was not giving me the necessary anti-oxidents and my Omega 6 to Omega 3 ratio was way out of whack further increasing the oxidation and causing excess inflammation in my body.

Keep in mind that all calories are not created equally. The more you dig down into the foods you are eating the better off you'll be. We tend to get caught up in the "macronutrient" level (carbs/protein/fat) and lose sight of the all important "micronutrients" (vitamins, minerals, fiber, etc.). Eating whole foods that are high in micronutrients should help all of this. For example, you could satisfy your entire daily carbs by taking in sugar and starch simple carbs, or you can do it by eating fruits and veggies. The former sends your insulin levels soaring and causes systemic inflation and fat storage, while the latter just pumps glycogen into your liver and mucsles while providing you with heavy doses of anti-oxidents to battle the oxidation that we are all subject to.

So, if you don't feel as strong as you did last round it could be more than the calories, it could be the type of calories. Here's a link to some Healthy Eating Tips that I put together: http://www.thefitclubnetwork.com/community/showthread.php?176-Healthy-Eating-Tips-for-Success

The other sneaky issue can be an acidic diet. There's a really good video that explains this on that page above. Basically, your body leaches minerals to regulate your blood pH, which causes all sorts of problems. Again, when you get enough micronutrients your body has the minerals it needs to regulate blood pH without leaching it from your body.

So, look at free radicals and a potentially acidic diet as some more sneaky causes of unexplained lack of strength. I highly recommend that everyone take a multi-vitamin and an Omega-3 supplement to help with these two issues that can really sneak up on you if you let them.

Keep bringing it.

[Sterling]

i am on the second weeks of phase 2 of p90x. Although p90x is not designed to lose weight that one of my objectives. I already lost like 17 puonds (out of 198), but i feel i reached a hiatus during the last couple of weeks. Would it be ok if i go to Level 1 of the nutrition system?

If you've stopped losing weight, then you are no longer in a calorie deficit. Re-evaluate your calorie intake based on your BMR at your current weight and activity level and then eat 10-20% less calories than you need. I'd also consider upping your protein and lowering your carbohydrate intake.

Stick with whole foods like proteins, veggies, fruits, and fats.

[Jimilu]

Thanks for your answers, this is my recovery week of the 2nd month, i will take your advice.

[InnerStrength]

I feel like I've hit a plateau on the second phase (like Jimilu, I'm also in my second phase recovery; doing Lean). . . as of this morning, my weight has actually gone up 2lbs. I had felt like there was loss in inches and gain in muscle after phase 1 but I am honestly nervous to take next week's 60 day measurments. . .

My energy seems a little less this week (which could be PMS and possibly a little bonking but nothing major). . . I am mindful that it's recovery week. . .

I'm also nervous for phase 3's eating plan as I've never gone so low on carbs. . . worried how to get the full 1800 calories (my recommended is closer to 2300 per BB website, but I've been barely able to reach 1800 (with help from a 500 cal. protein shake that'll have to get cut out next phase). I'm more than a little scared for both the plateau I seem to already be on and for what's next. . . all advice is welcomed of course! :) thanks!

Cel

PS I hadn't been diligent about weighing in as long as I had been feeling progress, this week the progress feels "iffy". . .

[Sterling]

I feel like I've hit a plateau on the second phase (like Jimilu, I'm also in my second phase recovery; doing Lean). . . as of this morning, my weight has actually gone up 2lbs. I had felt like there was loss in inches and gain in muscle after phase 1 but I am honestly nervous to take next week's 60 day measurments. . .

My energy seems a little less this week (which could be PMS and possibly a little bonking but nothing major). . . I am mindful that it's recovery week. . .

I'm also nervous for phase 3's eating plan as I've never gone so low on carbs. . . worried how to get the full 1800 calories (my recommended is closer to 2300 per BB website, but I've been barely able to reach 1800 (with help from a 500 cal. protein shake that'll have to get cut out next phase). I'm more than a little scared for both the plateau I seem to already be on and for what's next. . . all advice is welcomed of course! :) thanks!

Cel

PS I hadn't been diligent about weighing in as long as I had been feeling progress, this week the progress feels "iffy". . .

I see that you're a female, 31, and 5'5". What is your weight?

[InnerStrength]

150 as of this morning-- usually hover close to 145 at my healthiest times. . . was 152 Day 1. . . thanks for your help!

[Dave]

Hey Cel - Now let's not get too carried away. This is about the time with P90X when people start to think things are not working and they do silly things. Just trust the process and stick with the workout plan. Phase III of the plan is actually a higher carb version than Phase II, which is why I typically recommend people stay in Phase II for the majority of the program. Maybe we take it to Phase III if they want to do doubles or something like that. The more I read the more I believe that Phase II is probably the best balanced of all the Phases, and therefore the most sustainable.

Sterling asks a good question about current weight. Let's also talk about where you were when you started. We see a lot of people that come in, lose a bunch of weight fast and then start to get discouraged as they trade muscle for fat and the scale doesn't go down. That's why measurements and body composition testing are so much better. They tell a much broader story. The scale only gives us the metric of total weight.

You may have also diagnosed the issue. Women tend to have greater weight fluctuations due to hormones that we guys just don't have.

Dave

[Sterling]

I'd say 1800 is a little high. I'd shoot for 1650/day. And if you are trying to force down the calories, then don't eat; you'll lose more weight. Your goal should be 1-1.5 lbs/week. I've got quite a bit on my blog about losing weight the right way.

I just saw Dave's post: great point -- where did your weight start? And don't freak out because it's really about adjusting as you go. If you're gaining weight, then you're eating too many calories -- with the exception of your PMS week :) --, if you're losing weight, then keep doing what you are doing. In the end, it's about the law of thermodynamics; plain and simple physics. If you eat less than you burn, you'll lose weight.

[InnerStrength]

Hey Cel - Now let's not get too carried away. This is about the time with P90X when people start to think things are not working and they do silly things. Just trust the process and stick with the workout plan. Phase III of the plan is actually a higher carb version than Phase II, which is why I typically recommend people stay in Phase II for the majority of the program. Maybe we take it to Phase III if they want to do doubles or something like that. The more I read the more I believe that Phase II is probably the best balanced of all the Phases, and therefore the most sustainable...

Dave

Thanks Dave!

I like the suggestion to stay in phase 2-- it's carbs are actually a lot more than I've been living on for the past two years (my eating looked a lot like phase 1 for at least the past year and I've been "trained" to "always" pair a protein with a carb which is part of why phase 3 looked so daunting with all of those carbs for me). A trainer I used to workout with was even questioning that (I think I posted that on another thread somewhere). So, to make sure, you're sayin' it's okay, or not a bad idea to stick with phase 2 for now (not worry about the lack of perceived progress?). . . I had looked into and bought some BCAA and Pulre L Glutamine to start taking when I enter phase 3- the concern being that lowering protein so drastically might lead to muscle tear down if I didn't supplement pre and post-workout. . . thoughts on this if ever I do enter phase 3's nutrition plan?

Thanks as always for the advice :)

[InnerStrength]

I'd say 1800 is a little high. I'd shoot for 1650/day. And if you are trying to force down the calories, then don't eat; you'll lose more weight. Your goal should be 1-1.5 lbs/week. I've got quite a bit on my blog about losing weight the right way.

Thanks Sterling, I will check it out. . . so without the 500 cal. protein/recovery shake I had added (partially to hit all of the protein in Phase I and partially to hit the calories) I normally averaged 1200-1300 per day before starting P90X (while working out with trainers/at the gym pretty consistently). . . went to 1800 after I was bonking at 1400. I could cut the high cal gainer shake and replace with a vegan one I have that's 23 g. protein and 117 cals. not sure if it'll have the glucosamine the current one has for recovery. . . will have a look. Would that sound like a feasible swap?

Thanks again for your help!

Feeling a lot less anxious between you and Dave! :)
Cel

[Sterling]

It's always better to eat whole foods when possible, including post-workout. They are assimilated better in your body and keep you satiated faster and longer. Whole proteins are also about 95% absorbed so there is very little waste.

You shouldn't bonk at 1400. Try increasing your water intake, at least 2-3 liters/day.

[FitRunner]

I measured my weight every day for a month and I saw overnight gains and losses of 2-3 lbs around period time. (Obviously not either fat or muscle gain/loss.) Just FYI.

[InnerStrength]

It's always better to eat whole foods when possible, including post-workout. They are assimilated better in your body and keep you satiated faster and longer. Whole proteins are also about 95% absorbed so there is very little waste.

You shouldn't bonk at 1400. Try increasing your water intake, at least 2-3 liters/day.

I definitely need to improve on the water front. . . worried that I'll bonk at 1400. . . did on my first week when I went that low. . . what would a good post-workout food be? (I have very limited time between working out and getting to work in the morning which is where the protein shake dependency started lol, and I cannot gag down omlets like so many others do. . . sorry, not trying to be a pain lol, just agree with eating whole foods and as cleanly as possible).
Thanks and have a good night!
Cel

P.S.Thanks FitRunner, it's good that I remember- I don't normally care what I weigh as long as I'm feeling results, it's just that I am feeling "iffy" about my results the past two-three weeks. Hoping next week (start of Phase 3) brings some improvement in that feeling. Loved feeling stronger and tighter as I had been feeling before this slump. . . probably shouldn't have weighed in now that I think of it! haha!

[Dave]

At 145 the P90X plan would recommend 2,340. Now keep in mind that it is specifically designed not to be calorie deficient, therefore not designed for weight loss (from a calorie perspective). The plan adds 600 calories, to compensate for the amount you burn (on average) so take those out. That's getting us somewhere in the 1,700 range. If you burn 600 calories (again this is sort of a guess as an average) then you are at a net of 1,100. That should be a place where you'll see results.

If you are comfortable with less carbs, then do that. There is no magic to the P90X nutrition plan. It is primarily designed to give people that have absolutely no nutritional knowledge something easy to follow that changes over time in a way that's consistent with how many people change. They come to the program addicted to sugar. That might be via Oreo's, or pasta, or alcohol, but their bodies need a break from carbs, and that's what Phase I is all about. Getting people to take a serious look at what they eat and recognize there's more to lunch than french fries. As they progress, they tend to get more responsible with their nutrition, and the fries are out. Healthy carbs from whole foods can be introduced in a very responsible way. But if you think all carbs are created equally, then it is easy to go back to munching down foods that are not rich in nutrients. All that will catch up with you.

Sterling raises a really good point, which is that what you eat is far more important than how much. Look over my healthy eating tips for success: http://www.thefitclubnetwork.com/community/showthread.php?176-Healthy-Eating-Tips-for-Success. We are talking about pretty simple stuff here. Eating whole foods, limiting sugars, avoiding an acidic state (slightly less obvious, but watch the video), and taking in the correct multi-vitamins, Omega-3's, etc (whether by food or supplement). When any one of those gets out of balance weird things can happen. Cell oxidation can really sneak up on you. It sure did with me. I felt fine and then all the sudden I was a wreck. I did some research, thought it might be oxidation and got myself on a steady diet of multi-vitamins and anti-oxident foods. Within a few weeks I felt better, but I was in a funk for a while. I did yoga most of January and February that year exclusively.

The point of all this is not to freak out. Take some time to understand the fundamentals and then apply them. Effort + Consistency + Time = Results. You need all parts of that equation to work, so give it time.

Dave

[MSgherzi]

At 145 the P90X plan would recommend 2,340. Now keep in mind that it is specifically designed not to be calorie deficient, therefore not designed for weight loss (from a calorie perspective). The plan adds 600 calories, to compensate for the amount you burn (on average) so take those out. That's getting us somewhere in the 1,700 range. If you burn 600 calories (again this is sort of a guess as an average) then you are at a net of 1,100. That should be a place where you'll see results.

If you are comfortable with less carbs, then do that. There is no magic to the P90X nutrition plan. It is primarily designed to give people that have absolutely no nutritional knowledge something easy to follow that changes over time in a way that's consistent with how many people change. They come to the program addicted to sugar. That might be via Oreo's, or pasta, or alcohol, but their bodies need a break from carbs, and that's what Phase I is all about. Getting people to take a serious look at what they eat and recognize there's more to lunch than french fries. As they progress, they tend to get more responsible with their nutrition, and the fries are out. Healthy carbs from whole foods can be introduced in a very responsible way. But if you think all carbs are created equally, then it is easy to go back to munching down foods that are not rich in nutrients. All that will catch up with you.

Sterling raises a really good point, which is that what you eat is far more important than how much. Look over my healthy eating tips for success: http://www.thefitclubnetwork.com/community/showthread.php?176-Healthy-Eating-Tips-for-Success. We are talking about pretty simple stuff here. Eating whole foods, limiting sugars, avoiding an acidic state (slightly less obvious, but watch the video), and taking in the correct multi-vitamins, Omega-3's, etc (whether by food or supplement). When any one of those gets out of balance weird things can happen. Cell oxidation can really sneak up on you. It sure did with me. I felt fine and then all the sudden I was a wreck. I did some research, thought it might be oxidation and got myself on a steady diet of multi-vitamins and anti-oxident foods. Within a few weeks I felt better, but I was in a funk for a while. I did yoga most of January and February that year exclusively.

The point of all this is not to freak out. Take some time to understand the fundamentals and then apply them. Effort + Consistency + Time = Results. You need all parts of that equation to work, so give it time.

Dave

Something has never quite made sense about that. How is P90X not designed to help you lose weight? All of the results, or most at least, have all reported weight loss in the high numbers. Perhaps it promotes "FAT" loss and not "WEIGHT" loss? But if you lose fat, you're gonna lose weight. But can you lose fat without being calorie deficient on a daily basis? That has never really added up when I read those posts.

Mind elaborating?

[Sterling]

Don't eat at 1400, eat at 1650. A protein shake is fine as long as it's not an everyday occurence. Eggs, cottage cheese, chicken, steak, fish...maybe you can eat a leftover or something that you've prepared ahead of time.

In the end, it's really about calories, but that meal will satiate you longer than a shake. Also, any carbs that you eat during the day are best fit into your post-workout meal. I'd also shoot to get 50-60% of your daily caloric intake in that first post-workout meal. This allows your food to serve its purpose when it's needed most.

Hope that helps.

[Sterling]

Something has never quite made sense about that. How is P90X not designed to help you lose weight? All of the results, or most at least, have all reported weight loss in the high numbers. Perhaps it promotes "FAT" loss and not "WEIGHT" loss? But if you lose fat, you're gonna lose weight. But can you lose fat without being calorie deficient on a daily basis? That has never really added up when I read those posts.

Mind elaborating?

I think Dave is saying that P90X was not initially and specifically designed for weight loss. It was designed to get 'already fit' people in top shape. However, it certainly became that and is marketed as that; at the very least as a fat loss solution.

Allowing 600 more calories, I believe, is too much to figure in for P90X; you simply don't burn that many calories. Most people overestimate for calories burned and underestimate calories eaten, which is why so many people have trouble losing weight.

You can't lose fat without a calorie deficit; you are definitely right about that.

[Dave]

Something has never quite made sense about that. How is P90X not designed to help you lose weight? All of the results, or most at least, have all reported weight loss in the high numbers. Perhaps it promotes "FAT" loss and not "WEIGHT" loss? But if you lose fat, you're gonna lose weight. But can you lose fat without being calorie deficient on a daily basis? That has never really added up when I read those posts.

Mind elaborating?

Absolutely. The genesis of P90X is kind of funny. Basically there were a group of people that were Power 90 junkies, including us and people like Mark Briggs. We were clammoring for something harder. There's only so many times you can do Sculpt 3-4 and Sweat 3-4 before you die of boredom and the plateau hits. So, Beachbody responded to that by coming out with P90X. They composed it as a niche product designed for people that were already in good shape, but wanted to be in crazy good shape. With that premise in mind they designed the nutrition plan to be a non-calorie deficient diet. If you run a calorie deficit you are going to lose weight. That's thermodynamics. P90X was designed for people that wanted to build muscle and if you want to build muscle, then you have to have a nutritional plan that supports that goal. The nutrition people came up with 600 calories as the average burned (I agree with Sterling that this is a bit arbitrary, but we did Killer Abs & Bun Shaper from One on One last night, and people in our group reported between 600 and 900 calories burned, so maybe not). They then added that number back into your daily calculation in an attempt to avoid a calorie deficit diet.

Now, what happened is much different than what was intended. People started using P90X as a starting point. When that started to happen, we really had to take another look at the calories in the plan. I get emails regularly from people telling me that the P90X plan requires that they take in 4,000 calories. If you do the math that means they are about 280. Those people really need to apply the law of thermodynamics and cut the calories. If weight loss is your goal, you've got to cut calories. I typically try to get those people on to another program like P90 or the P90 Masters Series. We always start by tossing the 600 calories the plan adds back in out the door. We then work with that number to find a responsible deficit based on activity.

So then reality. People do typically lose weight doing P90X. But the most common result is an exchange of fat for muscle. The two "weigh" the same, but muscle is three or four times as dense, so your body shrinks. Your abs pop out from behind the layer of fat and the veins in your arms show because you are lean. I have maybe lost 5 or 6 pounds since my initial weight loss, but my body fat percentage is lower and that's what happens with P90X. Tony Horton weighs about 180 and he's about 5' 10" or 5' 11". I'm 5' 9" and I'm tipping the toledos at 161 as of this morning and my body fat percentage is higher than his for sure.

When I say that P90X wasn't designed for weight loss, what I really mean is that the nutrition plan isn't a calorie deficient one and if weight loss is the goal, you've got to run a calorie deficit.

Hope that makes sense.

Dave

[FitRunner]

If you run a calorie deficit you are going to lose weight. That's thermodynamics. (...) Those people really need to apply the law of thermodynamics and cut the calories.

I've seen others say these kinds of things and haven't said anything yet, but it's getting to my delicate science sensibilities - I understand calling calories in, calories out thermodynamics sounds catchy and lends it the appropriate feeling of a natural law, but it isn't in fact thermodynamics at all. Thermodynamics can be vaguely said to be about "heat", but that doesn't mean that everything involving the English words "burning" [calories] and "heat" are examples of the laws of thermodynamics in some illustrative way. The laws are derived from considering a system, meaning more or less a bunch of gas molecules in a box, and possible particle and energy flows in and out of the system out and in of the rest of the universe. Then you move on to statistical analysis of how many ways the particles can be arranged in the box depending on whether the system can exchange particles and/or energy with the rest of the universe, and... I'm sure you can imagine that getting from the box of gas to metabolism in the human body isn't exactly directly related. You can always say in a trivial sense that "everything is thermodynamics" but that doesn't really help you make the point about calorie deficits :)

Apologies for being nitpicky.

Teresa

[InnerStrength]

Don't eat at 1400, eat at 1650. A protein shake is fine as long as it's not an everyday occurence. Eggs, cottage cheese, chicken, steak, fish...maybe you can eat a leftover or something that you've prepared ahead of time.

In the end, it's really about calories, but that meal will satiate you longer than a shake. Also, any carbs that you eat during the day are best fit into your post-workout meal. I'd also shoot to get 50-60% of your daily caloric intake in that first post-workout meal. This allows your food to serve its purpose when it's needed most.

Hope that helps.

Helps tremendously! Thanks so much Sterling! Hoping to be back with all smiles after I "Bring it" to complete my first round! :)

[diane]

I have a question similar to this discussion. I am finishing week 5 and in the first phase I lost 5 lbs and 10% body fat, following level 1 plan (~1800 cals). Now this does not sound like a lot, but my weight when I started was 102 and my % body fat was 20. I was not looking to lose anything, but toned up and build nice muscle tone. My husband is worried that I have gone too far and risk health issues. I am not feeling bad and my workouts have been great!!!

Then a bomb crashed.... ONE big and unexpected issue that just came up - I triggered the chickpox virus in my body and developed shingles.....AGAIN, I do not feel bad even inspite of the rash. Thoughts anyone?

Oh yeah, I did see my doctor and she encouraged me to continue the program as long as I feel ok.

diane

[Sterling]

Fitrunner:

Well since you brought it up...

A calorie is a measure of heat. One calorie is the amount of heat needed to raise the temperature of 1 gram of water by 1 degree Celsius. The energy value of foods are measured in joules which is just another measure of energy. If you really need to convert for some reason, 1 calorie is equal to 4.2 joules (or 1000 cal = 4,200 joules).

Protein: 4 calories per gram (16.8 joules/gram)
Carbohydrate: 4 calories per gram (16.8 joules/gram)
Fat: 9 calories per gram (37.8 joules/gram)
Alcohol: 7 calories per gram (29.4 joules/gram)

When researchers determine the calorie values of foods (what you see when you read the food labels), they do it by burning the foods in something called a bomb calorimeter and measuring how much heat is given off. A potential problem is that the human body is not a bomb calorimeter and that simple fact affects the energy balance equation. That is to say, just because a gram of protein burned in a bomb calorimeter has 4 calories doesn’t mean your body derives 4 calories from it energy wise.

In summary, the law of thermodynamics does 100% apply to calories because calories ARE a measure of heat.

[FitRunner]

A calorie is a measure of heat. (...) In summary, the law of thermodynamics does 100% apply to calories because calories ARE a measure of heat.

I've done bomb calorimetry, and I've also derived the first and second laws of thermodynamics from statistical mechanics, and vaguely remember the Krebs cycle from biology. Thermodynamics applies to bomb calorimetry just fine - think about the setup, the calorimeter with its contents is the system, the lab is the universe. The standard laws of thermodynamics apply to equilibrium processes in macroscopic systems (objects). Our metabolism is neither. There is a reason physicists are not telling you things biochemists and biologists are and vice versa.

What I am saying is that it is not correct to say that the idea of "calories in, calories out" is an example of the laws of thermodynamics simply because a calorie is a unit of energy. Kinetic energy is also measured in units of energy, but that doesn't mean that thermodynamics governs anything with kinetic energy. (It does not, for example, govern a collision between two gas molecules.) Sure, you can say "everything is thermodynamics" and mean it in a very overarching general way and have it be true, but that's not a synonym for "calories in, calories out."

Just looking at the ideas should make it pretty clear they're not technically the same:

Caloric balance, or "calories in, calories out" is the set of ideas that


If you consume more calories than your body can burn, your body will store the excess calories as fat
If you burn the amount of calories that you eat, your weight will remain unchanged
If you consume less calories than your body burns, your body will get the deficit amount from stored fat and sometimes muscle.


The laws of thermodynamics are the following:


Zeroth law: If system A is in equilibrium with system B, and system A is also in equilibrium with system C, system A and C are also in equilibrium.

First law: In a closed system, the energy is constant. Usually expressed as U = Q + W or U = TdS - PdV. (U is internal energy of the system, Q is heat, W is work, T is temperature, S is entropy, P is pressure, V is volume.)

Second law: The total entropy of the system and the universe/reservoir can never decrease.


Perhaps I am not familiar enough with applications of non-equilibrium thermodynamics to see how the various metabolic steps could be described with a macroscopic approach. If so, feel free to correct me. Perhaps I shouldn't have said anything, since I can't imagine that this discussion is very interesting to most people, but science and fitness are both close to my heart :D

[BubbinStuff]

Sterling and FitRunner,

Thank you for fulfilling my insatiable nerd-like mind with physics and chemistry knowledge. The technical discussion actually makes more sense to me than the other explanations that have been confusing me. So, thanks for that! :)

[FitRunner]

Phew, glad someone enjoyed it! I always worry people will be annoyed and disinterested when scientific details get discussed. Particularly like in this case where it's a tangent to the main point of discussion. I don't want to be that person who starts a looooong monologue about the sex life of ants at a cocktail party... But sometimes it is easier to be clear by going into details. I'm trying to learn when I'm doing what :D

[BubbinStuff]

...the sex life of ants at a cocktail party...

I just choked on my water. LMAO.

You may continue the original topic now... ;)

[InnerStrength]

okay one check in for advice as I enter Phase III of my first Lean Round of the X. . . I'm taking the thread's advice and sticking with the Phase II of meals, trying to lower calories to 1600 (from 1800) supplementing with brach chain amino acids (BCAA's) to support muscle preservation pre-workout. Thursday is Day 60 so I'm trying to stick with the eating as well as I can knowing the workouts might be a little lame until this cold that hit me Friday passes. . . I'm finding it hard to come up with lunchbox friendly ways to change up the snacks as I focus on meeting the suggested portions in the plan. . . Here's this week's plan:

a.m. workout- followed by a protein shake w/1 banana (time is really a problem for me)-- this is where I was making up the calories with a 500 cal shake, if I use the lower, 117 cal shake, I end up short. . .

snack: 1 cup TJ's (Trader Joe's) plain, nonfat Greek yogurt, 1/2 cup TJ's mango medley

lunch: 1 can tuna w/1TBSP light canola mayo, 1.5 cups mixed greens, 8 cherry tomatoes, Bragg Amino Spray as dressing; 1/4 slice jalepeno assagio flat bread

snack: apple, 2 TBSP peanut butter, 2 graham cracker rectangles

dinner: chicken breast, green beans, 1 small yukon gold baked potato 1 TBSP wasabi mustard

Per SparkPeople here's what that breaks down to:


CALORIES CARBS FAT PROTEIN
1,423 164 32 123
CALORIES CARBS FAT PROTEIN
Where I am short: 177 7 - 83 2 - 27 0 - 10


So, my problem is that I'm low on calories, which is why I'm favoring the higher calorie protein shake postworkout. . . any advice? (and no, I cannot afford P90X bars. . . if I follow the portion plan, I need to fill bar/shake section). . . advice on how to fill approx 175 cals is what I need help with :)

Thanks Board!

[BubbinStuff]

InnerStrength - Do you like whole raw almonds? 25 almonds (roughly 1 oz) is 175 calories.

[Netty]

Yeah, I am in the 2nd week of Phase 2 as well and am still trying to lose weight. My husband has dropped twice as much weight and inches as I have in the same amount of time and I have more weight to lose...it gets frustrating sometimes. I am following the P90X nutrition guide and am taking in about 1500 to 1600 calories a day so I am not sure why I am not losing the weight the way I want to. Don't get me wrong, I can see the results, but still feel like I could be doing something wrong that is keeping me from dropping the pounds the way I want to. I am still going strong though and continue to push play everyday. Should I go back to the Phase I nutrition, by going back to 5 proteins and 1 carb vs. the 4 proteins and 2 carbs?

[InnerStrength]

InnerStrength - Do you like whole raw almonds? 25 almonds (roughly 1 oz) is 175 calories.

That was so awesome! Out of habit, I measured out five one oz servings of almonds last night, then I read your post! So I went ahead and threw one into my yogurt this afternoon! Thanks for the suggestion Babbin!

[InnerStrength]

Yeah, I am in the 2nd week of Phase 2 as well and am still trying to lose weight. My husband has dropped twice as much weight and inches as I have in the same amount of time and I have more weight to lose...it gets frustrating sometimes. I am following the P90X nutrition guide and am taking in about 1500 to 1600 calories a day so I am not sure why I am not losing the weight the way I want to. Don't get me wrong, I can see the results, but still feel like I could be doing something wrong that is keeping me from dropping the pounds the way I want to. I am still going strong though and continue to push play everyday. Should I go back to the Phase I nutrition, by going back to 5 proteins and 1 carb vs. the 4 proteins and 2 carbs?

Netty,
Are you sure that's enough calories? Any bonking? I aimed for closer to 1800 calories my first two phases and saw a lot of advice to others to add 100-200 calories when things aren't changing. . . perhaps you are gaining muscle which wouldn't show in weight loss necessarily, how are your clothes fitting????

[FitRunner]

Netty - I was wondering the same as InnerStrength. Without your weight we can't say for sure, but for 1500-1600 cal to be enough you would need to weigh in the 110-150 lb range. For you to then also lose weight from that in a healthy way, you'd have to be very short also. (Which, of course, you could be. I have no idea.) I'm eating closer to 2000 cal in a day and I'm 5'6", 155 lbs right now, and I'm losing body fat so I'm at a deficit. The nutrition guide says that the most common mistake is to not eat enough, so maybe you need to (paradoxically) eat more.

On the other hand, have you considered measuring body fat with, say, calipers? Getting it right with the calipers takes some practice, but since you only care about weight as an indirect gauge of body fat, why not measure the fat directly? That way, it's easier to gauge whether you're losing fat or not.

Teresa

[Dave]

Yeah, I am in the 2nd week of Phase 2 as well and am still trying to lose weight. My husband has dropped twice as much weight and inches as I have in the same amount of time and I have more weight to lose...it gets frustrating sometimes. I am following the P90X nutrition guide and am taking in about 1500 to 1600 calories a day so I am not sure why I am not losing the weight the way I want to. Don't get me wrong, I can see the results, but still feel like I could be doing something wrong that is keeping me from dropping the pounds the way I want to. I am still going strong though and continue to push play everyday. Should I go back to the Phase I nutrition, by going back to 5 proteins and 1 carb vs. the 4 proteins and 2 carbs?

How about your clothes Netty. Total weight, in particular compared to someone else, is really deceptive. People on P90X tend to build muscle and lose fat, so they shrink, but their total body weight doesn't change that much. If your clothes are fitting better, then toss the scale and keep going by that.

Dave

[Netty]

How about your clothes Netty. Total weight, in particular compared to someone else, is really deceptive. People on P90X tend to build muscle and lose fat, so they shrink, but their total body weight doesn't change that much. If your clothes are fitting better, then toss the scale and keep going by that.

Dave

Thanks to you all for your comments and advice. I am seeing a change in the way my clothes fit and am able to wear things in my closet that I haven't in years, so I know that I am shrinking...maybe just the "weight" throws me off. For those that were curious about my size, I am 5'4" and currently weigh 143...when I started 36 days ago, I was at 155. My goal weight is 125. Is that even possible and still be healthy?

Anyhoo...thank you for all the feedback. Of course I am still going strong and will NOT give up. I feel great and know that the P90X is working!! I appreciate the support ;)

Netty

[FitRunner]

Netty - At 125 lbs, your BMI would be 21.5, so at first glance that should be fine, but if I were you I'd try to estimate what your lean body mass is and then see how that compares to 125 lbs. I've run some numbers and my lean body mass is about 117 lb (hoping to increase that by building more muscle, of course). If I were 0% fat, my BMI would be 18.7 - still in the "normal" range - even though I'd be dead. Obviously, I can't personally go to the bottom end of the "normal" BMI range in a healthy way. A more realistic number for your minimum healthy weight than BMI comes from estimating your lean body mass and then adding essential fat to that. For me, that's about 129 lb - If I were to go below that, I would be at serious health risk. An even better lower weight limit for me would be the bottom end of the 'athletic' body fat range, or 133 lb. It would be unwise for me to dip below that. My weight goal is to be in the middle of the athletic body fat range, about 140 lbs.

There are a few different suggestions for how to calculate body fat out there. You can find three right at Team Beachbody at http://teambeachbody.com/get-fit/fitness-tools/workout-sheets. Once you've decided what method you want to use for that (or even try a few), you can calculate your lean body mass.

So if you weigh 143 lb now, and your body fat percentage is b%, your body fat weighs (143 * 0.b) pounds. Let's call that f. To get your lean body mass (let's call that l), subtract off what your body fat weighs from your total weight: l = 143-(143*0.b), or l = 143(1-0.b)

For me, that's
f = 155*0.245 = 37.975 lb of fat (My body fat percentage is 24.5%, which is 0.245 expressed as a fraction)
l = 155-37.975 = 117.025 lb which rounds to 117 lb lean body mass. (I haven't measured my body fat or weight carefully enough for the decimals to mean anything.)

10 to 12% body fat is considered essential fat for women, so that's a biological must. The athletic range is 14-20%, 21-24% is considered fit, 25-31% is acceptable, 32% and above is overweight, and 42% and above is obese. Pick a range and run the numbers, and you'll know you have a healthy goal weight. Let me know if you try it and have questions!

Teresa

[InnerStrength]

I posted this on another thread, but wanted to thank the thread that got me thru my panic two weeks ago:

So two weeks ago I posted asking for advice as I had feared a plateau (just after the 45 day mark). . . SO much for fearing a plateau! I'm definitely learning not to doubt myself/my efforts! I took my 60 day measurements yesterday morning (Day 61) and OMG!!! Here's the difference between Day 30 and Day 60 (still crying that I can't find Day 1 to know the total, total but WOW!):

Waist 28.25= down 1.25 inches OMG! (this is where I am happier being! I was at or over 30 for the first time ever around Day 1 so am MOST proud of this accomplishment as it brings me back to "me")
Hips 39.25=down 1.75 inches
Chest 32.5=down 1.25 inches
Arms down 11 each=.5 inch each
Thighs 24.5? each=(I can't remember where I measured, but I guess my booty's lifting because it went up). . . pants fit better so that still gets a whoohoo!
Calves (my LEAST favorite body part all of my life) 17= down .5 inch each!
TOTAL loss in Phase II= 5.25 inches!!!!!

I've decided to stick with Phase II eating thru Phase III as it seems most comfortable. Cutting down to 1600 calorie range has not seemed to negatively effect my energy levels (although yesterday's Core Syn was a little difficult in a new, strange way, maybe it had to do with having it at the END of the week vs. as my Monday morning workout where it was during the first two phases. . .?)

Thank you guys once again for your assistance and support!
Cel

[scourtney7]

Congratulations Cel!!!! Way to put up some pretty astounding numbers and share your success with others! Now your message and story can motivate and inspire others who may be reading with similar questions and struggles. Those are terrific! I'm smiling because you are smiling.

Shannon

[Sterling]

Cel: That is awesome!

Since we had a great discussion around the topic of calories, thermodynamic, and the like...you guys might enjoy today's post on my blog.

[InnerStrength]

Shannon and Sterilng: I am super motivated and thankful for the threads' feedback and support, so thank you! :)

Cel

[CyberFitnessGuru]

Dont rush to the nutrition. The P90x system is well thought out and adding your own twist to it can only make it not work as well.

Patience is a virtue.